Thibault on Italians and Sentiment - the "Short" Version

So I got a copy of the new Greer translation of Thibault's manuscript. It is fantastic, and a joy to read through. I'm going to put down my thoughts and interpretations here, so I can later prove them wrong or flawed in some fashion. I haven't said it in a while, but my standard "I MIGHT BE COMPLETELY OFF BASE HERE, FORM YOUR OWN OPINIONS ABOUT THE WORK PLEASE" disclaimer applies doubly here. These are my own interpretations, and I make no guarantees about their correctness.

I am engaging in my standard method for learning a new thing - I read through to assimilate the basics and a basic idea of the more complex concepts, and then I take it onto the field to see where problems arise. After that, I read parts of the book more thoroughly in order to gain a more in-context understanding than I would have had if I had attempted to understand before trying things out.

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My revised Thibault game worked surprisingly well at practice on Monday. There is a new form of taking the blade which Thibault advocates for, when my opponents adopt a more Giganti-ish, hand-held-low posture. Essentially, it involves starting with your sword below theirs, stepping around their sword to the right, and wrapping yours behind theirs. I found myself actually actively pushing their sword downwards, so that it was parallel with the ground. This blocks off their means of ingress by placing their sword outside of your presence, while at the same time blocking the possibility of a disengage because of the circular motion of your tip. Your blade ends up higher than you might expect, but it blocks things off pretty well.

This is followed by a brief pause to make sure they aren't doing anything clever, a giarata step to cover ground, and then a right-foot lunging thrust to cover a truly ridiculous amount of ground. This solves a problem I've previously had when practicing the Spanish arts, in that Italians can move backwards faster than I can move forwards in a circle.

If they attempt a yielding-around thrust (which Thibault calls a "curved thrust"), then your response should be to abort the giarata-step and thrust, catching their sword with your inside quillon.

So, to go over it in a simpler way, with pictures. In all of these, Alexander (the person fighting in Thibault's tradition) is on the right, while Zachary (in this case a Giganti-esque fighter. More to the point, he is a stand-in for anybody who fights from a position which keeps their blade back somewhat, blade low, and tip higher than the hilt). I'm saying that this isn't a perfect Giganti or Capoferro, but it can be generalized to deal with them. Or many other non-Fabris Italians.

The front set of figures is the first position. Alexander drops his sword low, while taking a collecting step forward. In my brief experience, this collecting step hasn't been truly necessary, but I can see how it would help in the next bit.

The set of figures behind them shows the transition. Alexander takes a wide step, mostly to the right, while wrapping his sword around Zachary's, tip-first. Note that, in relation to the circle on the floor, Alexander has moved very far to the right.

At this point, Alexander pauses for a moment. This is (in my brain) to allow Alexander to confirm that yes, he has the positioning he wants. His opponent has allowed him to step and position his sword in the way he wants. It's a one-tempo pause, to use demi-Italian terminology, to allow the perceptions to catch up to the world.

The right plate here is essentially the same as the back plate above. Alexander has what an Italian would call "opposition" over his opponent's blade.

The left plate, cut off by the page boundary here, shows the giarata-step I've been talking about. Alexander maintains opposition over his opponent's sword and rotates his body away from his opponent, stepping backwards with his left foot. This combined hip-leg motion is a preparation for a very, very long step in a moment.

Not pictured here is what to do if your opponent attacks at this point. Essentially, the advice given is to abort the step, planting your left foot, then perform a demi-lunge and thrust with your right foot, being sure to collect their sword with your inside quillon, either upwards or downwards.
 

And of course, we have the result depicted here, the first complete set of people on the right. It looks like they have moved backwards on the circle, but it is important to note that the circle corresponding to the right set of figures is actually the one overlapping the one that Zachary is standing on. It's cut off by the page boundary. In this image, Zachary is completely off of the circle, and Alexander has approached the edge of the circle closest to Zachary.

The left set of figures shows what happens if Zachary executes a complete retreat - moving backwards as fast as possible. Essentially, Alexander and Zachary reset. They are in the same positions, except that they are both now to the left of the original circle that they started on. The circle corresponding to the left set of figures is the circle which Zachary is standing on, in the right set of figures.

To summarize:

• Start with your sword below theirs.
• Wind it above/behind theirs while stepping to the side.
• Stab? Stab. Maybe according to below principles of sentiment? We'll see.

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The next thing I've been working on is Sentiment. For those who don't know, "sentiment" is the way that Thibault measures the amount of pressure that your opponent is exerting against your blade. Thibault names nine degrees of sentiment, but two groups of three of them end up meaning the same thing. From weakest to strongest, they are "Dead", "Sentiment", "Alive", "Lively", "Livelier", "Liveliest", "Strong", "Stronger", and "Strongest".

A short version of what to do against each sentiment follows. These are works in progress, and an attempt to collapse a large number of use-cases into a set of principles or rules.

Against "Dead" sentiment, you attack immediately, detaching your sword from theirs, maintaining confidence that you will get past their tip if your distance is correct. This amount of pressure is when your opponent is not pressing against your blade, or isn't even touching your blade. This is will be the most difficult to implement in our game, because a lot of Thibault's defense against "Dead" sentiment comes from stabbing through your opponent, and thus placing your body beyond their tip. In our game, this would lead to double-kills due to late, sloppy bladework. Thibault does mention how to "arrest with courtesy", and thus not stab your opponent but instead put your tip directly in front of your opponent's face. The most likely adaptation for me here will be "arresting without courtesy" - that is to say, drawing my arm back such that my tip stabs them, but does not go through them.

Against "Sentiment" sentiment, you attack immediately, detaching your sword from theirs and stepping away from their sword. Here, the opponent is pressing a little, but not hard enough that their blade will "follow" or "stick" to yours if you move yours away from theirs quickly. This is almost the same as against "Dead" sentiment, but you step away from their blade a bit because their blade will move toward you. Just - not very much.

Against "Alive" sentiment, we begin to perform actual blade-on-blade opposition. This is the bit of sentiment which, as I understand it, involves their blade "sticking" to yours a bit. If you were to go for a straight-in thrust without defense, you would end up being stabbed above your sword, and that would be sad. So here, you continue circling toward their blade, collect it with your quillon, and stab them. Yay.

Against the "Livel(y)(ier)(iest)" sentiments, we bend our arm and thread our tip behind their blade. This allows their blade to slide down ours to our hilt, in a way similar to Fabris Rule For Single Rapier #1. The Lively set of sentiments are the point at which your opponent will be able to push your tip hard enough that you can't really accurately thrust. So we solve the issue by collecting them on our hilt and one of our quillons - Thibault advises the outside one, but that seems harder than using the inside one. This places their sword harmlessly between your sword and your body, in a way that seems kind of scary to do but is really cool.

Alternately, and especially if they increase to this level later in our motions, we can perform a half-circle cut, pulling our sword down and backwards to allow their momentum to carry them away, and then cutting above their sword to the front of their face. This maneuver would be preceded by using our hilt and quillons to transfer them from one side of our body to the other, then performing the cut almost entirely with the wrist.

Against the "Stron(g)(ger)(gest)" sentiments, we cannot simply rely on our hilt to control their blade. To deal with these, we, with our arm still extended, transfer their sword to the other side of us. We explicitly are directed to use our (inside?) quillon to help their sword along on its journey, for some reason. We then continue stepping past them, using our wrist to perform a full-circle cut that exits from below their sword to strike the back of their head. You should be sure to block their sword's path of ingress with your quillon during the early parts of this. In the later parts, you are behind them, so it no longer matters. The cut should be thrown, again, primarily from the wrist.

To summarize:

• First: Take them off the center line using your sword near their tip.
• Dead
• GO GO STAB
• Sentiment
• GO GO STAB with a small void
• Alive
• Good blade opposition yay! Stabby stabby!
• Lively / Livelier / Liveliest
• Collect them on your hilt, between your sword and your body, thrust to face.
• Help their sword to the other side of your body, step through, your sword exits below theirs and enters above, cutting to their face.
• Strong / Stronger / Strongest
• Help their sword to the other side of your body, step through, your sword exits below theirs and enters above, cutting to the back of their head.
• Thibault doesn't explicitly call this out, but I bet you could just step on a chord past the circle and stab them in the flank, as other Spaniards advocate.

 That's what I'm sure will be the first of many posts. Have fun, and good fencing!